Curse

Kunder · Jun 12, 2011, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wielder Of Magic

the reason that rangers are less common in human groups is a totally different discussion that has to do with lack of aoe and other damage sources, yet I do not see how that is relevant for this discussion.

No, I was referring specifically to enemies. Warriors are a lot more common enemies in PvE than Rangers. They are certainly more dangerous. Its a fact. Some major races don't even have rangers in them while warriors show up in droves, e.g. Titans.

The reason people think physical damage is somehow "more" armor-ignoring than elemental damage is because Strength of Honor/Splinter Weapon/Great Dwarf Weapon/etc and every single attack skill in the game is armor ignoring. In PvE about 50-75% of your physical damage dealt is armor ignoring while elementalists have at most 5-20% from EBSoH and nothing else. If those buffs applied to physicals and their attack skills were not armor ignoring they would be far worse than even eles are now.

Urcscumug · Jun 13, 2011, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wielder of Magic

you are free however to show me calculations that prove me wrong.

EBSoH does +15 at max rank. Conjure does +17 at r12 of the element and +15 at r10. EBSoH has the added damage vs Charr, Conjure has added damage vs specific elemental-vulnerable foes. And let's not forget that a Conjure is easier to get your hands on than EBSoH, for a new player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wielder of Magic

Glyph of elemental power does not solve the attribute problem, simply because you need a skillslot for it.

It does solve it, but it's a trade-off.

Between a bar slot and 24-36 attribute points (rank increase from 8-10 to 10-12).

The whole game is built on trade-offs and balancing skills within the confines of the bar. Come on, stop being so hardheaded, we're just trying to help each other here.

If there's one thing I've learned in GW is that there's plenty of ways of achieving something, if only I'd open my eyes and look at things differently. I still have plenty of "wow" moments.

Kunder · Jun 13, 2011, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Hmm...

Incendiary Arrows / Triple Shot / Ignite Arrows/ Conjure Fire / EBSoH/ Serpent's Quickness / 2 open slots

I _think_ you have enough energy to run this with almost no expertise (allowing you near max spec in Fire/Wilderness while meeting bow requirement), the reason being that since Ignite makes your bow fire on its own you can actually run a zealous string. Incendiary + Triple shot in a packed mob = 90 AoE armor ignoring + 90 AoE armor respecting Fire + 42 fire degen + 50ish single target armor ignoring damage per arrow.

Used to play around with something like this, though it was without Conjure Fire and with BUH before BUH was changed. It was decent, though nothing amazing. Conjure Fire should add enough to make it at least a semi-respectable single target spiker with 200ish damage from Triple Shot. Still probably better to drop Conjure for SY, but if you want to eek the most damage out of a range without being forced into Barrage or EL this is most likely it.

Quote:

EBSoH does +15 at max rank. Conjure does +17 at r12 of the element and +15 at r10. EBSoH has the added damage vs Charr, Conjure has added damage vs specific elemental-vulnerable foes. And let's not forget that a Conjure is easier to get your hands on than EBSoH, for a new player.

Conjure never has added damage vs specific foes. Your bow's base damage may at times, but that is fairly negligible usually.

Wenspire · Jun 13, 2011, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Choosing between ConjureX or EbonHonor... the later would be best simply because it increases everyone's (non-armor ignoring damage characters) DPS within the ward's range.

Another route that may be potentially worth pursuing is going 2ndary into Para and grab "Go for the Eyes". With only 4 points invested into the tree, you gain nearly a +50% chance to land a crit. Wiki doesn't specify if it affects all hits from multi-arrow skills (barrage,volley, etc) though. But seeing as it costs 0en to use, you can't really go wrong IMO.

Kunder · Jun 13, 2011, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Choosing between ConjureX or EbonHonor... the later would be best simply because it increases everyone's (non-armor ignoring damage characters) DPS within the ward's range.

Another route that may be potentially worth pursuing is going 2ndary into Para and grab "Go for the Eyes". With only 4 points invested into the tree, you gain nearly a +50% chance to land a crit. Wiki doesn't specify if it affects all hits from multi-arrow skills (barrage,volley, etc) though. But seeing as it costs 0en to use, you can't really go wrong IMO.

GftE only affects the first arrow. Furthermore, crits are mostly meaningless in PvE since they only enhance base damage (which is low because of armor). GftE only ends up improving your damage by 2-3 damage per shot on average even if you have 100% chance to crit with it. The only time GftE should be used is either for energy management or with 1 or 2 MMs in the group, since minions get partial benefit from the crits and it adds up somewhat.

Buns United · Jun 13, 2011, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Hmm...

I _think_ you have enough energy to run this with almost no expertise (allowing you near max spec in Fire/Wilderness while meeting bow requirement), the reason being that since Ignite makes your bow fire on its own you can actually run a zealous string.

Incorrect, Ignite Arrows does a seperate damage packet (which is fire damage) per arrow. Your arrows will still do physhical damage. I think you got it mixed up with Kindle Arrows, which does indeed change your damage type.

Wenspire · Jun 13, 2011, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

GftE only affects the first arrow. Furthermore, crits are mostly meaningless in PvE since they only enhance base damage (which is low because of armor). GftE only ends up improving your damage by 2-3 damage per shot on average even if you have 100% chance to crit with it. The only time GftE should be used is either for energy management or with 1 or 2 MMs in the group, since minions get partial benefit from the crits and it adds up somewhat.

Since crits negate 20 armor from target (not sure if it stacks with armor reduced from cracked armor condition) and gives your attack a max damage effect, is the added amount really that little in HM?

Kunder · Jun 14, 2011, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buns United

Incorrect, Ignite Arrows does a seperate damage packet (which is fire damage) per arrow. Your arrows will still do physhical damage. I think you got it mixed up with Kindle Arrows, which does indeed change your damage type.

Why do you have to ruin perfectly good theorycrafting with such technicalities?

That said, you could probably work around the energy problems from not having zealous with the other slots. Either pet + scavenger's strike or, more interestingly, GoLE + any other 10E spell you would like to cast for free. Another EBS is the only thing that comes to mind at the moment, though, and thats not exactly an amazing addition.

EDIT: OK guys, I have the dumbest looking ranger build ever that might actually be effective (for a ranger that is). Double speccing into elementalist attributes! The horror! The noobishness!

Earth Magic: 8
Fire Magic: 9
Expertise: 8 + 1
Wilderness Survival: 8 + 3
Marksmanship: 8 + 1

Incendiary Arrows/Triple Shot/Ignite Arrows/Conjure Fire/Glyph of Lesser Energy/Ebon Battle Standard of Honor/Ward of Weakness/Serpent's Quickness

You _may_ be able to squeeze in Ward Against Melee instead of Ward of Weakness, haven't tested it all that much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Since crits negate 20 armor from target (not sure if it stacks with armor reduced from cracked armor condition) and gives your attack a max damage effect, is the added amount really that little in HM?

Bow average non-crit damage vs 100 armor : 15
Bow crit vs 100 armor: 27

Average damage @ 15% crit rate: 17

(27 - 17) / 4 = +2.5 damage per arrow on average if you use GftE every 4th shot.

I'm surprised the math worked out that well, I just ballparked my 2-3 damage estimate lol.

Wenspire · Jun 14, 2011, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Oh, you were factoring in the adren-building as well. Makes sense. Though with multi-arrow skills you can pretty much keep it up almost every shot with enough enemies around.

According to wiki*, max dmg (non-crit) vs 106 armor (at 12 marks) is around 15. I will need to figure out the exact numbers later when I can and compare with crit occuring. If Cracked Armor is also applicable, I think it makes landing crits even more worthwhile.

* http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Damage_calculation

Kunder · Jun 14, 2011, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Oh, you were factoring in the adren-building as well. Makes sense. Though with multi-arrow skills you can pretty much keep it up almost every shot with enough enemies around.

According to wiki*, max dmg (non-crit) vs 106 armor (at 12 marks) is around 15. I will need to figure out the exact numbers later when I can and compare with crit occuring. If Cracked Armor is also applicable, I think it makes landing crits even more worthwhile.

* http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Damage_calculation

Multi arrow skills still means you can only activate GftE at a max of once for every 4 arrows. If anything its worse, if barrage hits 3 enemies and you only needed 2 adren then you have wasted adren and the +damage per arrow gets worse.

In my damage calculations I assume +20% from customization and +15% from weapon mods ontop of the base 15-28 damage. Max non-crit damage against a 100 armor target is therefore (28 * 1.15 * 1.2) / 2 = 19.

Wenspire · Jun 14, 2011, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Ah yes, I forgot about the customization bonus of +15%...

I did a quick test with Barrage + GftE (at 4 command) on Master of Damage and his 2 adjacent targets. A few times, I was able to get two 75 damage numbers with GftE up. I am thinking that GftE affects all arrows at next skill used?

*edit* nvmd the MoD numbers. Could get them without GftE up. Totally forgot about the inherent base-crit chance.

Wenspire · Jun 21, 2011, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Ok, I finally got around to doing a calculation of crit damage vs non. This is what I came up with on a normal attack:

*Enemy at 110AL
*12 Marksmanship
*+35% Weapon Damage (20% Customization and 15%^50 mod)

min/max = 8.70/16.25
avg = [12.48]

With cracked armor:
min/max = 12.31/22.97
avg = [17.64]

Critical Hit (max damage and -20AL):
[22.98]

Critical Hit + cracked armor (assuming they stack to drop enemy armor by 40):
[32.49]

Considering GftE is pretty much free to use as it's adren based, has no activation time and affects all allies within range,I don't think it is too bad of a skill to have equipped. It can easily be fueled by targeting close-knit enemies with Barrage to be up quite often.

Amy Awien · Jun 22, 2011, 07:34 AM // 07:34

One third to half of your gfte shouts will not result in a critical hit. That means the extra damage comes roughly once every six to eight arrows.

Wenspire · Jun 22, 2011, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Ya, there is that "percentage-chance of proc" downside. It should be over 50% considering gfte at 4 Command gives +49% in itself added to the base. Well, if you also consider that it affects all allies I think it pays for itself. After all, someone has got to land a crit if it is in effect on multiple people, right? And if Barraging into a large enough group, you can have it active after every shot.

*EDIT*
Updated the previous post's damage numbers. Found a saved damage calculation website and realized that the 20% customized/15^50 were not added together, but instead separately calculated. However, it was not much of a change to what I had earlier.

http://www.oildrip.com/calc/index.php

Amy Awien · Jun 24, 2011, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

After all, someone has got to land a crit if it is in effect on multiple people, right?

How much effect it gives depends on which partymembers are within range, and melee usually will not be in range, while casters could have more effect using AoE, especially when Barrage is hitting multiple foes.

Quote:

And if Barraging into a large enough group, you can have it active after every shot.

You still need 4 hits, and if 2/3 is effective, you get your bonus once every 6 arrows. It would seem that favorable winds is more effective.

Wenspire · Jun 24, 2011, 07:51 AM // 07:51

FavWinds is nice except the recharge and set time; that along with also affecting foes if applicable.

But regarding gfte, it obviously gets more effective with more allies that can make use of it as well as if you are using either barrage or volley to power it. I just like the fact that it has no EN cost or activation time.

As long as you manage to strike at least 2 targets with your Barrage, you can have gfte up every 2 seconds. Hit 4 and it goes up in 1. With at least 33% ias, you should still have it up within 3 even if only single target?

Amy Awien · Jun 24, 2011, 01:29 PM // 13:29

I thought 1 hit was one strike? Two hits per Barrage would come down to 2 Barrages, or about 4 seconds. With 33% IAS on a shortbow you'd spend a bit more then 5 seconds accumulating adrenaline.

Wenspire · Jun 24, 2011, 08:30 PM // 20:30

You are correct when not under 33% ias. It does take over 5sec, depending on bow, when only striking one target with normal attacks. When using attack skills, does it still follow base rate of attack?

**Marty Silverblade** · Jun 24, 2011, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

When using attack skills, does it still follow base rate of attack?

Yes, unless that skill has a specific activation time listed.

Wenspire · Jun 24, 2011, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Ok, that makes sense.

Looking over the wiki at shortbow/flatbow attack speeds, I am unsure how to calculate "# attacks per second" when they list at 1.xxx like listed below.

Normal / 25%IAS / 33%IAS
[2.025][1.51875][1.35675]

To land four attacks at 33%, is it just multiplying the number (to equal 5.427), or is there a "rounding" effect on each attack (as 1.35675 becoming 1.00), or possibly an after delay as with using interupt skills (making 1.35675 becoming 2.00)?